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 Post subject: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:42 pm 
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Location: VA
Going cruising soon...I've got an Icom M710 that's been tweaked and unlocked...I've got my RR and station license is in the mail. Some questions though:

Tuner wise, what's the difference between the AT-130 and the AT-140?

I'd like to be able to use ALL bands, but at the moment, weather fax is going to take priority, so if I hold off on the tuner for now, which antenna would I build if I just needed weather faxs? I'm planning on running weatherfax2000, although I've currently got a copy of JVCOMM that I'd like to try as well.

What are my antenna options if I want to receive ALL bands, but don't want to use a stay, the GAM split lead, or a random wire strung on a halyard? Do I have any other options?

Thanks,
- H3

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Location: Port Charlotte, Florida
Perhaps Dave/Auspicious will see this and you will have your answers.


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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:40 pm
Posts: 22
Location: marathon
AT 130 is older and some have had problems.
AT 140 matches up to the 802 and all other Icoms.
The difference is about $100.

Without a tuner your options are limited to Dipoles and other single Freq. antennas to transmit.

If you want to work all bands, you will need a tuner to transmit with just about any antenna.

Just about any piece of wire will Receive weather faxes and all Bands. Transmitting is where antennas get tricky.

A long wire type backstay (w/tuner) is the easiest to maintain, and works well. You will also need a counterpoise for a long wire (like the boat bonded or some other grounding arrangement).

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Appreciate it. Two questions....first, if I go with the traditional backstay, what's that run, roughly, for the isolators and install? If I have a solar array over the cockpit, how will the antenna and array affect each other?

Second, are you familiar with alternate backstay antennas? If so, how does that get set up? Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:40 pm
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Location: marathon
Not sure what you mean by 'Alternate Backstay Antennas'.

All backstay antennas are just Long wire antennas that use an insulated piece of the backstay tuned with an antenna tuner. Most long wire antennas must be over 23 feet long to be tuned to "all bands". The cost is whatever you want to spend. A pro installation could run $3000 including a bonding system. Or as little as $5 for a spool of wire and some backyard engineering.

There are fiberglass whips, Inverted V dipoles, and I have seen mast stays turned into long wire antennas. All of them need a tuner to transmit on all bands.

There are also some specialty antennas that you can adapt to boats. Each is different as to the vessel it will be used on. Antennas must be tuned to the boat, and one size does not fit all. Because the antenna is tuned on the boat for the freq. that you are using, things like solar panels will become part of the antenna (for good or bad).

There are several good books on boat SSB radios and installations. One is by Marti Brown, SSB for Idi-yachts. Docksider Radio has a good book on SSB and Pactor. ARRL.org is the HAM radio site that will connect you to more than you want to know.

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:15 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:05 am
Posts: 70
Location: Chesapeake Bay
H3LlIoN wrote:
Going cruising soon...


Great. Have a wonderful time. Have you joined SSCA yet? Are you flying your burgee?

H3LlIoN wrote:
I've got an Icom M710 that's been tweaked and unlocked...I've got my RR and station license is in the mail.


Your ahead of many on doing the right things the right way.

H3LlIoN wrote:
Tuner wise, what's the difference between the AT-130 and the AT-140?


Specified performance is the same. The biggest difference is in fabrication -- many of the thru-hole parts on the circuit board are replaced with surface mount devices in the 140 reducing manufacturing cost, reducing early failure, and increasing long term reliability. The 130E (note the 'E') and 140 have extra circuitry to speed tuning on 2182 kHz - the emergency frequency.

There are lots of 130s out there providing good service. I wouldn't take one out if you already have one, and wouldn't turn up my nose at some savings on one.

Hook up on the 140 is a little easier since connectors are brought out of the box on pigtails; you won't have to open the tuner to connect cables. That may be a factor for a DIY installation.

H3LlIoN wrote:
I'd like to be able to use ALL bands, but at the moment, weather fax is going to take priority, so if I hold off on the tuner for now, which antenna would I build if I just needed weather faxs? I'm planning on running weatherfax2000, although I've currently got a copy of JVCOMM that I'd like to try as well.


Get as much wire as high up in in the air as you can. On delivery I often run 12 or 14 AWG copper stranded wire up on a topping lift. I've even used sail tape to hook it to the leech of the main. Keep it insulated from anything that you even think might be grounded and you'll be fine.

Since you plan a more capable system you might do just as well to install the antenna you finally plan on and use that from the beginning. Why spend money on something you're just going to replace?

Try JVCOMM32 before you buy Weatherfax2000. As long as you have a halfway decent laptop with a good soundcard you won't see any benefit of Weatherfax2000 and the external demodulator. The only way to get an improvement would be a hardware demodulator fed by the radio discriminator and if that was something you wanted to tackle you wouldn't be asking these questions. You'd have a bunch of other questions instead. *grin*

H3LlIoN wrote:
What are my antenna options if I want to receive ALL bands, but don't want to use a stay, the GAM split lead, or a random wire strung on a halyard? Do I have any other options?


An insulated stay, usually a backstay, is the classic approach. It certainly works.

The GAM split lead has unpredictable performance. On some boats it works well, even quite well. On other boats, sometimes of the same make and model, it works poorly. To my understanding the NEC antenna model used by the designer wasn't appropriate for the application so external factors unduly influence performance. I would avoid it.

I'm not clear about your aversion to random wire on a halyard. Ultimately an insulated backstay is just as random in length. As long as you avoid multiples of a half wavelength on bands of interest you're fine.

The only other option that comes to mind is a fiberglass whip. There are many commercially available.

If you have a ketch, yawl, or schooner the triatic stay becomes an option but it is surprisingly challenging to get right. When you get it dialed in the inverted ell is outstanding. If this applies to you I can get you pictures and a lessons learned diatribe from a friend that did his this way.

H3LlIoN wrote:
first, if I go with the traditional backstay, what's that run, roughly, for the isolators and install?


All over the map depending on the complexity of your rig, how much you do yourself, which insulators you choose, yard rates in your area, and the particular rigger.[/quote]

H3LlIoN wrote:
If I have a solar array over the cockpit, how will the antenna and array affect each other?


Not all beyond the shading you would get from the backstay anyway.

H3LlIoN wrote:
Second, are you familiar with alternate backstay antennas? If so, how does that get set up?


Very viable approach. For a permanent installation just rivit a padeye up high on the mast off to one side. Stand the wire off from the padeye a couple of feet with any kind of insulator (small line is fine - be careful of your knots as you don't want it coming down). Run the wire down to the pushpit corner on the same side as the padeye is offset. You'll need some kind of load transition like a porcelain egg and a load absorber like stiff rubber or a very heavy bungee. The load absorber will keep the antenna from taking structural loads as the masthead moves around that should be taken by the rig.

You can buy the whole works with the wire run inside double-braid sheathing for not a lot of money. http://ropeantenna.com/

Let me know what I can do to help.

I'm based in Annapolis but advice and counsel are free. For folks passing through I have DIY support consulting services.

Oh -- when you have everything in hand get the antenna up first. Then hook everything together spread out in the cockpit, on an aft berth, on boxes, or the sole and test it. If there is a problem with any of your hardware much better to figure it out that way then after spending an hour getting that one last screw in on some fussy bracket.

Connectors are the source of more troubles than everything else put together. Especially DIY installed "UHF" or PL-259 connectors. Get help. Order custom lengths made up already. Don't experiment with your boat. Don't cheap out on the connectors either. Really nice silver-teflon connectors may be $3 each. Cheap ones are $1. Not a good source of savings. SSB is a life safety system and needs to be done right.

Let me know where you are located and as long as you aren't time-constrained I can help you find expert, possibly free, certainly cheap help on PL-259 connector installation. Might cost you a couple beers or a day sail.

snoozer wrote:
Docksider Radio has a good book on SSB and Pactor.


Dockside Radio http://docksideradio.com/ . Gary Jensen is good people and provides good support. He has two quick start guides, one for SSB installation and operation and one for using Pactor to get e-mail service over SSB radio. Gary also maintains a great list of marine and marine-related ham nets: http://www.docksideradio.com/Cruising%20Nets.htm

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:54 pm
Posts: 141
Location: VA
Auspicious wrote:
Great. Have a wonderful time. Have you joined SSCA yet? Are you flying your burgee?


I don't know what SSCA is. Also, I have not yet received my C.O. burgee, as I just sent Bob the cash monay' on friday.

Thanks for the info on tuners...I think I'm going to go with the AT-140, if i can snag one on the cheap. I tried Paul Hansen, but he's out of tuners at the moment. He is the one that tuned up my rig though.

Auspicious wrote:
Since you plan a more capable system you might do just as well to install the antenna you finally plan on and use that from the beginning. Why spend money on something you're just going to replace?


Duly noted.

Auspicious wrote:
Try JVCOMM32 before you buy Weatherfax2000. As long as you have a halfway decent laptop with a good soundcard you won't see any benefit of Weatherfax2000 and the external demodulator.


I was planning on using the "soundcard edition" of weatherfax, which doesn't use an external demodulator.

Auspicious wrote:
The GAM split lead has unpredictable performance. On some boats it works well, even quite well. On other boats, sometimes of the same make and model, it works poorly. To my understanding the NEC antenna model used by the designer wasn't appropriate for the application so external factors unduly influence performance. I would avoid it.


I had heard the same thing, and was trying to avoid it, as it's $500. That being said, I don't really want to hire a rigger and redo my backstay either.

Auspicious wrote:
I'm not clear about your aversion to random wire on a halyard. Ultimately an insulated backstay is just as random in length. As long as you avoid multiples of a half wavelength on bands of interest you're fine.


Halyards are at a premium on my boat. She's cutter rigged, by the way. All three sails are set up on roller furlings, and everything is run to the cockpit for singlehanding. I'm leaning towards an alternate backstay or the rope antenna at this point. Very nice.

Auspicious wrote:
The only other option that comes to mind is a fiberglass whip. There are many commercially available.

Yep, that's what I thought. Wasn't sure if they could be tuned for every frequency though, or where I'd have to mount it.

Auspicious wrote:
If you have a ketch, yawl, or schooner the triatic stay becomes an option but it is surprisingly challenging to get right. When you get it dialed in the inverted ell is outstanding. If this applies to you I can get you pictures and a lessons learned diatribe from a friend that did his this way.


Cutter. Sorry, should have clarified.

Auspicious wrote:
Very viable approach. For a permanent installation just rivit a padeye up high on the mast off to one side. Stand the wire off from the padeye a couple of feet with any kind of insulator (small line is fine - be careful of your knots as you don't want it coming down). Run the wire down to the pushpit corner on the same side as the padeye is offset. You'll need some kind of load transition like a porcelain egg and a load absorber like stiff rubber or a very heavy bungee. The load absorber will keep the antenna from taking structural loads as the masthead moves around that should be taken by the rig.

You can buy the whole works with the wire run inside double-braid sheathing for not a lot of money. http://ropeantenna.com/


Definitely thinking I'm going to go one of these two routes. It's super easy to get up my mast, as it has mast steps all the way up.

Auspicious wrote:
Let me know what I can do to help. I'm based in Annapolis but advice and counsel are free.


You're a gentleman and a scholar, sir.

Auspicious wrote:
Connectors are the source of more troubles than everything else put together. Especially DIY installed "UHF" or PL-259 connectors. Get help. Order custom lengths made up already. Don't experiment with your boat. Don't cheap out on the connectors either. Really nice silver-teflon connectors may be $3 each. Cheap ones are $1. Not a good source of savings. SSB is a life safety system and needs to be done right.

Let me know where you are located and as long as you aren't time-constrained I can help you find expert, possibly free, certainly cheap help on PL-259 connector installation. Might cost you a couple beers or a day sail.


I appreciate that. I'm currently a little south of you, in Williamsburg. The boat, however, is in St. Croix. I leave on the 19th to go get her and bring her back.


Auspicious wrote:
Dockside Radio http://docksideradio.com/ . Gary Jensen is good people and provides good support. He has two quick start guides, one for SSB installation and operation and one for using Pactor to get e-mail service over SSB radio. Gary also maintains a great list of marine and marine-related ham nets: http://www.docksideradio.com/Cruising%20Nets.htm


Anddddd I'll be getting those books. Thanks! Eventually I want it set up for email as well. Thanks for the tips!

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:54 pm
Posts: 141
Location: VA
Whoa. $1600 for a pactor modem to send and receive email is pretty steep!

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 1:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:05 am
Posts: 70
Location: Chesapeake Bay
H3LlIoN wrote:
Auspicious wrote:
Great. Have a wonderful time. Have you joined SSCA yet? Are you flying your burgee?


I don't know what SSCA is. Also, I have not yet received my C.O. burgee, as I just sent Bob the cash monay' on friday.


http://ssca.org/ - I meant an SSCA burgee.

Bob had a nice article about SSCA by Barbara Theisen in the first issue of Cruising Outpost.

H3LlIoN wrote:
Whoa. $1600 for a pactor modem to send and receive email is pretty steep!


$1,150 plus cables and shipping (say $1,300) for a IIIusb and $1,500 plus cables and shipping (say $1,650) for a DR-7400.There are IIusb and IIpro models that show up from time to time on the used market for around $800. I don't recommend the IIex (as low as $650) but you can make it work with extra cables and some hair loss.

Very quickly cheaper than a sat phone.

Whether it makes sense or not depends on what your cruising plans are.

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 Post subject: Re: SSB questions
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:28 pm 
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Location: Florida
I just thought I would throw this into the mix.

I've installed a DX Engineering UN-UN onto my insulated backstay and am using an MFJ 993b tuner. The rig tunes up on all the marine SSB and Ham bands just fine. The UN-UN is designed for a 43' vertical (long wire) multi-band system. It works very well.

My other radio has a Tarheel antenna with no tuner. The Tarheel antenna has a self contained motor that manually adjusts the antenna length to tune to any band. This rig also works very well.

Good luck setting the system up, whatever you decide.

http://www.tarheelantennas.com

http://www.mfjenterprises.com/Product.php?productid=MFJ-993B

http://www.dxengineering.com/search/department/antennas/part-type/baluns-ununs-and-chokes/product-line/dx-engineering-maxi-core-high-power-multi-band-ununs?autoview=SKU

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